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 health stat degredation?

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Shinoskay
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PostSubject: health stat degredation?   Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:06 am

So, I was thinking... with the new health and sharpness change and the nerfs and shit...

even before those changes I thought about this.

why dont we have a health degredation system?

like, sure, you just fucking superman'ed that punch, or that jutsu, or maybe even that weapon by just badass standing there and soaking it because you can...

well, now your health is down 10 points...

or, maybe you are just grazed by a fireball jutsu... 5 points...

so you just clashed kunai with them, its your only kunai, both kunai just lost 20 points sharpness but the enemy has 5 more kunai so you better get clever with your resources.

same for jutsu health, outside of special regenerative jutsu like the earth prison.


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Naoki Gekou
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PostSubject: Re: health stat degredation?   Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:10 am

Why 10, why 5, why 20?

Show me the math and I will show you my problems with it.
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Shinoskay
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PostSubject: Re: health stat degredation?   Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:06 am

5/10/20 are just placeholder numbers, I just think its more realistic and less ludicrous then having someone be able to just berral through tanking attack after attack because they have the health to (I havent seen it, but id rather not see it)

please fill free to explain
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Kyousuke Snow <3
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PostSubject: Re: health stat degredation?   Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:57 pm

Well think if it like this. The health isn't hit points it's how tough something is. If I scratch a diamond with a rock it won't do anything. So, say I hit your 100 health blade with my 30 power attack it won't do anything. If it did, kunai would be more useful than they already are because chip damage would become relevant.

Perhaps play testing either IC or the arena will help you get used to the current system. Because taking out weapons and armor is incredibly easy as you'll come to find.


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Valen Akari
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PostSubject: Re: health stat degredation?   Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:10 pm

Sure thing, let me or most other weapon users hit you with our 250+ sharpness swords or anyone else hit you with their 150+ power jutsu and one shot you regardless. Or if you rather a tai user can hit you with over 150+ strength and turn you into a fine red mist. 

Making the health system into a degradation system would involve the total revamp of almost everything else. Are you going to do that? Are you capable? Considering you haven't even tried the system you keep attempting to change in any way, shape, or form. I doubt you're capable as you have absolutely no experience in what you're doing with the system you find here. In most cases, it isn't the numbers that screw people, but they're lack of attention to detail and poor wording. 

The only way someone would get health high enough to do the thing you fear is A. They LITERALLY specialized in it. Meaning they're clan bonus is health, their item is health, their booster is health, etc. To my knowledge only one person fits that criteria on the site (Fuck you Kenshin), and even then He'd at MAX only get it to 245. The stat is literally impossible to cap. The only way you can tank hit after hit is with DR techs (Damage Resistance Techniques). They each have a cooldown and not all of them work in the same way. Take one of the more common ones for example, here.

This technique works wonders to prevent the removal of limbs, or the caving in of your face or chest cavity. But if I light your on entire body on fire than that 'Specific' part of the body doesn't help too much does it? 

Add on to the fact that it's only got a single post duration and a three post CD and you get a tech that can let you MAYBE tank one hit, but not much else. 

How about chakra barrier? Here

Ignoring the fact that in almost every conceivable way you'll only get this sucker up to 165 power MAX, it only works once per topic, doesn't work on genjutsu, and once broken has to be reapplied (iirc) 

Meaning tanking 'hit after hit' is legitimately impossible for anyone but a gate user (Here's looking to the kage that posted while I was typing this) and even then to get his high enough to where he'd be immune to damage he'd have to pop the eighth gate, which kills him regardless. (PLus, gates is getting reworked soon I'd imagine, based on the limited list nerfs that have been coming recently.)

(Editing to say something, don't read too much into the tone of this. It's been a loooooong night and I probably shouldn't have tried to explain anything as exhausted and belligerent as I am at the moment. My apologies, if I have offended you. I am not going to edit anything I've said though, I don't want to try to analyze if things would make anyone angry by mistake. So take this blanket apology as a legitimate one if you please.)
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Shinoskay
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PostSubject: Re: health stat degredation?   Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:22 pm

ya, no. I have been role playing since I was 14.. I am 29 now. dont talk to me like I am some scrub or like I havent taken the time to consider the system as it is, I spent a good week mulling over the idea of health degradation and its implications and I have been reading rules after thread after jutsu.

Please do no be so condescending, I feel health degradation would be a good idea and in time I hope to show you guys why. till then, this post can sit here as a reminder that I suggested something for it before I used it.

I see min maxing people walk around with 25 health but 100 speed and 30 or so strength... but there items have 150 health and sharpness (may as well have 360 there) and jutsu boosts (I cant even math that high?) so they dont have to worry about strength or health... a degredation system would make strength and health more relevant stats. thats how I see it, plus, I can see people making jutsu to mitigate health degredation anyways.

I get that in most cases there isnt an issue here but, as you presented, there are just some builds that when done right(loosely said) suddenly there is just so little you can do.

anyways, it was a suggestion, people shouldnt jump down my throat over it.


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PostSubject: Re: health stat degredation?   Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:30 pm

Then you would know health is a bad stat in most cases unless you spec it. DR is what you are talking about with the people who run 30 health builds. In which I agree, nerf DR and make it like tail and weapon. Where on top of a chakra req to use it also a health req.

Health degrading honestly just makes health a worse stat than it already is. I have 90 almost as high as you can go and trust me it's meh.


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Yensung Aburame <3
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PostSubject: Re: health stat degredation?   Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:56 pm

i enjoy degenerating health in many systems. Naturally its realistic yes, but here where you can pretty much be at like 30 health stat and run at godly speeds while being perfectly fine. A degenerating health stat will hurt more than it will balance things. here, and will pretty much harm alot of the builds on the site. it will also make weaponry spec obsolete in light of the Nerf health took recent patch.  in contrast with this system. 

Damage outclasses durability in many way's here. One just has to do some simple number crunching and boom you can with ease soar over 200 speed and power with techniques. 

Besides the rare occurrence of the above scenario there is this.

If degenerating health was a thing. Area of effect attacks will pretty much melt the site. (thanks to our scaling and environment not having a health stat.)


who said it was easy?



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Valen Akari
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PostSubject: Re: health stat degredation?   Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:17 pm

When you state 'Items' I assume you mean armor. Because you can have 150 health on an earring all you want, if I blow up your head when you have 30 health it won't take much, and armor is not a blanket thing by any means. It needs to be planned for, and used properly (Which still doesn't guarantee protection from everything) 

Take mine for example. I get to buff it's health by 50, making it 200. But as Yousei pointed out to me, the heat of a jutsu  would still cook me alive inside of it. (Something I would debate if it truly came up, but I certainly hope it does not.) 

There are a multitude of situations where armor will not help you whatsoever. It won't increase your ability to breath in poisons, unless it's stated it filters them. It won't absorb impact force, unless it's stated it does so, and it cannot, and will not save you if someone swings a sword at it with enough sharpness on it to cut through it like butter. 

Out of curiosity though, where in the seven hells are you getting that they might as well have 360? In regards to 'not worrying about' certain stats, if you try to go a 'jack of all trades build' with this site, you're going to get killed...Quickly for that matter. 

For the record, I'm not trying to be condescending, which either goes to show you how hard I have to try to be that way, or simply how tired I really am, but I honestly couldn't care less. The fact that you posted a suggestion is indeed a wonderful thing. Truly it is and I am not trying to be a dick about that. I know I would prefer it people who have been on the site for a long time attempted to do so more often. So I DO in fact commend you doing so. But you're roleplay experience means absolutely jack if you haven't actually tried to USE the system you're trying to change. 

LEt's get back to why a degradation system would be a bad idea. 

It nerfs the very people it would be trying to help more. 

The only two specializations on the site that utilize strength of any kind whatsoever are Taijutsu and Weaponry (and the latter doesn't really NEED it either) 

First off with the recent weaponry nerfs, genin can already shatter/melt/destroy the weapons of anyone they damn well please with an A rank tech that's fully scaled and a PASSIVE substat booster. This includes weapons wielded by weaponry users. 

Now you wanna make it so that they can do that with a post or two of hitting it with even weaker techniques? 

A tai user already has to try to work with strength, speed, and health, while also trying to have enough chakra to be able to escape even lower ranked genjutsu. 

Now you want to make it so that if they DON'T stack health they'll die the moment a mid/high class tech hit's them? Unless you literally change around EVERYTHING to fit a degradation system it wouldn't work. Due note, this site has been around for quite a long time. (MUCH longer than I have been here certainly) and it's still going on rather well. Evidently something is going correctly with how things are currently done. Does that mean change isn't good? Of course not, does that however mean that our current stat system is already a decent plan at the very leas to start from and add onto to make the site better overall? Bet your ass it does. A degradation system would destroy the current stat system and require a total overhaul of everything from the bloody ground up in most cases (Save the Kaguya bloodline, the degradation system used there was a stroke of genius from Xyxer imo) 
 
If you want to make an ENTIRELY new stat system that works a degradation system into it and show it to the site as a whole, go for it. We'll all look at it, and decide as a site if we want it. We all know that staff would listen to our desires in the end if we liked it enough (Incoming shitpost from Tak regarding that last line), even if the majority of them did not (Like implementing certain aspects for example). Hell if I remember correctly, someone tried not too long ago to do so and as a site we did just that. We just didn't find anything in it that we liked as a whole, or it required it to be fully implemented to truly utilize what was in it. 

I'm not saying don't post your ideas, nor am I honestly trying to insult you for doing so. But I do feel it insulting that you come trying to say we change things when you haven't honestly tried them yourself..Even if you get your health to obscene levels, you're going to be hurting somewhere else which can be exploited. Take my build for example. 

I can only hit 140 chakra, maxed out, booster and all. (With current items, etc be factored in) that means any jutsu (chakra based of course) from space time, fuin, nin, gen, med and puppets, would be much weaker than someone who say, could cap that shit at 215 (245 if they used certain boosters) My strength, is only 75...meaning I can use S rank tai techniques..theoretically, but of course with my health stat as it is, I can't exactly hit anything bare handed without shattering something. 

That limits me greatly in a large number of areas. 

But, (as the current bijuu npcer for the five tails is currently learning) I am probably the fastest person on the site, before utilizing a tai/weaponry technique (or double boosting with a bijuu booster) in terms of sheer movement speed (That means no teleportation). Meaning I have more than enough speed and reaction time to dodge anything I bloody well want should I find a way to do so within physical limits (still working on a way to outrun gen..research isn't working well) As well as provides me with a wonderful means of escape (Even before factoring in phasing and teleportation) making me a hard sonofabitch to pin down. 

The point I'm trying and failing to make here is, yes, health tanking. Could be fairly powerful if done properly. But it would hardly be invincible. It would just need to be worked around creatively. Now then, I am not going to write another reply. Not because I'm tired of you, or bored of you, or trying to ignore you. But because I probably shouldn't be trying to debate a damn thing regardless. I'm coming off as far more than a prick than even I am comfortable with. So for that, I apologize.
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PostSubject: Re: health stat degredation?   Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:33 pm

I have an example out of my Chuunin Tournament. Items with health only cout so far:

I had the manipulated fabric that at max has 120 health at one halfe of it.
When Yurei spawned an attack that was high enough to destroy it, it was instantly gone and did not take away from the attack so it went right through. (I have not calculated for it) and no normal Item will ever have a too high health because they are Items, I am not sure if there is a limit but anything with more is or should be considered armour.
Armour can only go up to 150 DR (I guess I can recall) for those who don't have weaponry any armour looses 50 of its power so to destroy most armours you are fine with 150 Power of anything.

(I can't talk about the jutsu, might be that there is some crazy stuff out there but this counts for ninjutsu as well so I bet our Staff is currently still working on reworking all of this little habits)

I can understand that you would kind of prefer to have some kind of health stat that indicates how much damage one can really take but I don't think this would do the site good.



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