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 Nerfing things

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Kobayashi Senshi <3
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PostSubject: Nerfing things   Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:56 am

So in Kumo chat we've been talking about things that are super OP and someone brought up This link here as an example of over powered things. Just to start things off, armors or masks shouldn't be allowed to filter any poison. It should have a power/ap cost that a sufficiently strong enough poison jutsu could break. Because as it stands that multi weave mask has no health stat so it can't be broken and it blocks ALL airborne poisons for only 750 Ryo. I mean if y'all don't wanna fix it I'm down I'll buy the hell out of that.

I'll let the other Kumo guys post their own things that they came up with, not my right to steal their thunder.


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PostSubject: Re: Nerfing things   Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:08 am

-Bjuu should be a booster or have numbers altered, or both.

Making it a booster, I'd suggest allowing the user to customize how it boosts. I also feel like the gap between 9 tails and 1 tail is wayyy too big atm. It works that way in canon, but on a site it should be more balanced. I suggested giving Bjuu cloaks a boost of 200 stats + (5 x # of tails) to balance it better, capped at +100 per stat. This would make them slightly stronger than most limiteds without being as stupid busted as they are right now. The only way to fight Jins atm is by being one yourself.

-Sage Mode

+300 stats and +20 speed/power for jutsu? I mean I know it's meant to be strong and it has the drawback of not being immediately accessible and needing to be charged, but I still find it far beyond even other limiteds. I liked the idea from the other thread where Senjutsu and Space-Time become Chuunin+ only specs. If not, Sage Mode could be like +75 to Health/Strength/Speed and keep the +20 speed/power for jutsu or something. It just seems like 300 stats is a lot more than everything else on the site.

-Lightning Release Armor

This is a weird jutsu. It's very vague as to what this does. +100 speed/strength is in line with other limiteds, but the DR scaling off chakra means it's crazy strong too, despite typically being considered one of the weaker limiteds. I think it also implies all attacks have additional lightning damage that's equal to your chakra stat, much like the damage reduction, but I have no idea if this is the case. Might just need to be reapped to clarify things.

-Gates

I think Gates users should be restricted to only Tai/Weap and then reduce the boosts by one whole gate. +150 spd/str and free tai with no AP upkeep is pretty excessive imo. Gates users are supposed to be pretty strict about their taijutsu, so I think it makes sense that they don't have the ability to use/neglected ninjutsu, genjutsu, and the other specs. Weap is the exception since it's also physical based, not chakra based. So with these guidelines, 7th gate is +100 spd/str, 6th gate is +75, etc.

-----------
There are a bunch of other unbalanced customs and other things I didn't address, like dimensions and stuff, but those are some of the things we discussed. It doesn't really matter if these things get nerfed or not, but we felt it was a pretty interesting discussion and worth sharing with the site.


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PostSubject: Re: Nerfing things   Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:31 am

- Multiweave mask just needs a health stat. Surprised that it didn't have one already. To be fair, a lot of poisons just straight-up screw you, but the poison system itself needs some tweaks.

- Agreeing with Reizo on everything except bijuu and LRA. I'm not quite sure that it's a problem that 9-tails is that much stronger than 1 tails, since 1-tails has one of the only forms of free elemental manip on the site. In terms of power scaling, if you take two people of the same rank where on has a bijuu and the other does not, the jinchuuriki is normally supposed to win. Might be just my opinion, but that's just how it works. I don't think enabling your average joe to beat a jinchuuriki makes for a good system.

LRAs abilities are pretty clearly stated. In addition, the DR is actually 100% balanced. Why is this? Note that the LRA has no health stat, so it doesn't inherit jutsu health scaling/enhancement (i.e. the health+60 for durability). In addition, since it doesn't boost chakra (only strength and speed), it's extremely difficult for somebody to boost this beyond 100-120 DR.

- Dimensions and the like are also mostly balanced. I'll refer all of you to the site's Special Technique Guidelines here.

- Puppetry needs to follow acceleration rules. Nobody uses puppetry anymore, but that doesn't mean it's any less broken.

- Genjutsu needs a MUCH better resist system. Mastered gen release may have been a small nerf to the spec, but that doesn't change much of anything.

- Permanently placed seals that aren't Curse Marks need some extra guidelines as well. At one point, I could walk around with a bunch of permanent seals on myself that absorbed AP, touch a bijuu and knock it out. Seals that stick around throughout multiple threads need to have more severe limits.

- Sharp weapons need a nerf, or at least they need one relative to blunt weapons. Both get the same mathematical increase to their respective substats (sharpness and impact force respectively), but sharpness has two advantages. Firstly, sharpness requires more health to resist (10 more, usually). More importantly, in weapon clashing, sharpness kind of rocks. I'll refer you to the stat rules, here, under "Sub-Health". First, there is a sharpness vs. sharpness check for the two weapons involved, then the difference between the two sharpness stats is applied to the weapon that loses the check. If that leftover sharpness is at a certain value, then the weapon gets cut. Blunt weapons have no sharpness, so they have the entire opposing weapon's sharpness stat applied to them. This makes it extremely difficult for blunt weapons to compete. I suggest either raising the cap on health for weapons with 0 sharpness, or nerfing sharpness itself.

- Maybe not as significant, but debuffs need some tweaks.

And that's my rant! :0
Hopefully, I had some legitimate points, I know I'm not 100% up to date with some of the rule changes, so I apologize in advance if I made any blatant errors.


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PostSubject: Re: Nerfing things   Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:51 am

Reizo Shōyu <3 wrote:
-Bjuu should be a booster or have numbers altered, or both.

-Sage Mode

+300 stats and +20 speed/power for jutsu? I mean I know it's meant to be strong and it has the drawback of not being immediately accessible and needing to be charged, but I still find it far beyond even other limiteds. I liked the idea from the other thread where Senjutsu and Space-Time become Chuunin+ only specs. If not, Sage Mode could be like +75 to Health/Strength/Speed and keep the +20 speed/power for jutsu or something. It just seems like 300 stats is a lot more than everything else on the site.

-Gates

I think Gates users should be restricted to only Tai/Weap and then reduce the boosts by one whole gate. +150 spd/str and free tai with no AP upkeep is pretty excessive imo. Gates users are supposed to be pretty strict about their taijutsu, so I think it makes sense that they don't have the ability to use/neglected ninjutsu, genjutsu, and the other specs. Weap is the exception since it's also physical based, not chakra based. So with these guidelines, 7th gate is +100 spd/str, 6th gate is +75, etc.


One thing you might have not noticed, is the rather strange lack of an ap cost... This leads to any number of problems.

Also, why is the 8th gate able to break 300? Isn't kind of op? IMO, if it is a larger stat booster, it is probably too weak, and if it gets its current powers, it is too strong. Can we just get rid of that part?

I have the feeling this topic should not be used as a way to criticize apps. That is really not constructive. I have had plenty of arguments of this in the past with other people especially Kiranomo, I don't want another one. That being said, I really just don't like the idea of limited things, especially if they are going to be way more powerful than anything else non-limted on the site.

Should blunt weapons be able to have more health? Sharp weapons cannot be as well built, due to the requirement of a sharp edge. (unless ninja magic is even found in weapons) This could make blunt things more viable.

I do agree with reizo that bijuu should not be an additional booster slot. This is simply hugely unbalanced. That being said, the ap costs could probably go down.
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PostSubject: Re: Nerfing things   Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:59 pm

All items should have a health stat. It should not be that some do and others do not. If one wants to break a healthless item, how do they? Assign it 1 (You know, since Vague bs), 150 (Since if you break an items maximum possible health, how could one argue), or is it N/a meaning that it cannot be destroyed? Also, as I've seen here before, having items with realistic health values would be nice. No, your rice paper should not have 150 health no matter what specs were taken. 

Yeah, I understand the concept of "well, ninja magic made it so it should totally have a ridiculous endurance!" Just no.... that's silly.

Also, why aren't folks weighted down by the bulk of some of the heavier armors I've seen. I understand that nobody wants to be hurt by this change, but if one has a suit of clankity, full body armor then you should trade something off for that extra full body protection. What do they trade? Unsure. Speed? Stealthiness? Cannot say for sure, but surely something to consider.

I've heard talk of "sonic booms" before. Now let me get this straight. You mean to tell me folks are breaking 332 m/s just by moving? Lets be realistic. The stat caps are at 300. I understand that the speed isn't a hard amount that is clearly defined (i've asked) but that is a bit ridiculous to think that ones speed can/should be mach 1. "But Nobu, what about Gates users who can technically break the 300 speed cap?" might be something that comes up or is asked about. Well, my answer to that is simple. If you have seen the Anime, you understand that this still isn't the case, showcased by gates users in the canon.

Bijuu/Jin need to be nerfed/tweaked. The fact that they are boosters that stat on top of boosters is just silly and game breaking strong. It means that with a decent Bijuu and a limited tech, you are easily getting 170 boost in relevant stats which is a bit high considering that boosters are supposed to follow very strict guidelines as to not be too strong. Also, while the 1 tails give manipulation, what about the distance between the 2 tails and the 9 tails? Or 2 and 8? 2 and 7? The sheer differences in stat gain are fairly large. I've counted it out before and sadly I don't have it in front of me now, but the difference is fairly significant. As for the "Average Joe" beating a Jin, I agree that that shouldn't be the case. But someone with a Limited Tech or something similar isn't what I would call and "Average Joe", dude. They have what the site considers some of the better abilities. Make it a booster that doesn't stack with another and make it strong like Limited boosters, or weaken it a good deal so that it give a much lesser stat advantage to the person who has Bijuu Cloak going while also using another booster tech.

"Well that is just what jealous people think since they don't have a bijuu! Clear bias!" might come up as a counter. My response? Please look over to the sidebar and see "7-tails: Nobu Sen Katto". I'm not an upset or jealous person that thinks that bijuu are OP because I don't have one. I'm willing to accept any nerfs/tweak to it since I honestly think it is a bit too strong.


LRA- I agree that this isn't as bad as it seems. It suffers a bit from M.A.D. (Multiple Attribute Dependency) so I'm not as worried there. 

Perma-Seals- I've said this from the gate as soon as I saw the idea presented. It is silly to have something always on you like that. Even the ones that are "used up" upon activation allow someone to just make a thread, fill themself up with buff seals of various different types pre-combat (an anytime since they stat til used) and activate them for no cost to provide effects. Maybe that is just what the spec does, and I am uneducated in the field. I just know that it seems easily abused and sets a precedent for other similar techs with greater powers and such. 

Genjutsu is considered by many (that I have talked to) as a "weak spec" or an "all or nothing spec", and I kinda understand their reasoning to a degree. But the fact that most of them don't have a speed (so they happen at... what timing??? RT? Instant?) and they can be instagimps that basically just kill you at what could be seen as instantaneous speed is kinda silly. Even if you are somehow instantly aware of the Genjutsu, it would likely break your momentum/attack pretty easily depending on the effect. 

Don't even get me started on Tsukuyomi... 25 meter range. Only requires eye contact (and don't give me that bull that you can just avoid eye contact. Not only is that likely metagaming if you don't know about Uchiha's IC, but is also fairly hard to do), and it can ONLY be broken by other Uchiha's that have unlocked 3 tomoe? So any other char just dies at instant speed?

Bloodline imbalance: Why is it that some BL's get what feels like a ton of stuff while others get almost nothing? Yes, Uchiha is my primary target here, but it doesn't stand alone. Yes, it is a limited clan. But compare some of its bonuses to even those granted by other limited clans. It gets a ton of stuff, not to mention a powerful active BL boost that add 100 to RT on top of 20 speed. It costs less as it gets stronger. Gets 3 free BL slots that are basically free range to make whatever they would like (plus 3 from their buddy that they are totally just going to swap eyes with to get EMS)

This isn't a clan vs clanless thing. No this is a clan vs clan thing.

Handseals! Why is it said in the rules that the stronger the tech is, the more seal it needs yet there are plenty of techs out there that are B,A, and S rank that don't really require any? I've always wondered why this was a thing. Mastery removed handseals, but many techs don't even have any at all. 

Weapons: It is far too easy for a weapon to reach fairly high sharpness without a whole lot of effort. In all honesty I don't feel like weapons should be able to reach 150 sharpness as a base. All other attack forms (without boosters) tend to cap at the 100 range (100 strength for tai, Chakra for others). Why does weaponry go above and beyond this "soft-cap" (of sorts). You could easily reduce weapon base sharpness and still have a very viable spec. Plus, "Ninja magic allows swords/weapons to do anything I'd like cuz why not". I don't really like this thinking, though I have no real solution for it as one doesn't need to "build" the sword. They can say they found it or such, etc.

DR and Regen stuff: I don't think that these effects all stack. No the don't "stack" to make one high number, but many of them reduce the incoming damage in layers, making the final attack bounce off harmlessly. This should be looked at, as it does make "invulnerable" characters as someone in one of these threads pointed out.

Dimensions: Ugh... no. Anybody can tell me that these are balanced til they are blue in the face. Take a look at the ones currently used and please tell me with a straight face that they are "totally fair". I don't see it.

Sage Mode: High boosts to 3 different stats along with other buffs. Need to "charge" nature stacks are able to be bypassed fairly easily by Bijuu/Summons/Clones. Making the "downside" easily mitigated and allowing for large boosts for minimal costs. 

Speaking of clones: Super easily abused. 'Nuff said.

Puppets following the momentum rules: This would be fine if weapons/jutsu/etc also did the same in my opinion. Why impose the limitation on one persons weapons without doing it to others as well.


I'm sure that there is more, but I'll end on that note for now. 

Yes, I'm a filthy "newgen" who has "no idea what he's talking about", so take it as you will on my opinions. 


Thanks for your time, 


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PostSubject: Re: Nerfing things   Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:18 pm

Naw man, everybody's opinion gets welcomed ^_^'. Don't stress it.

You bring up a lot of solid points, though I am one of those filthy scumbags that'll argue that "dimensions are balanced" until the very end. Their teleports are so slow that they're inapplicable in combat unless you're against someone with like 10 speed). Sure, some of the abilities are pretty strong (and probably do need a bit of nerfing, though I'm not going to call out any specific examples), but overall, the concept of dimensions is pretty solid, and I personally think the site's restrictions on them are fair. I've used one before and found that I'd probably do MUCH better in fights without it.

Uchiha's actually a lot weaker than you might imagine. Sure, the RT buff is amazing, but it's extremely difficult to get to MS, especially since staff are a lot less lenient now than they were in previous versions. I don't think Uchiha places within the strongest 3 clans, but that's a pretty debatable point.

(I know that from previous rulings, the speed of sound through air is 190 speed on NRPG, though that could be overruled what with the staff change and everything.)

Most methods of DR have cooldowns (the chief one being Yin Healing Wound Destruction), which provides a window for attack. Regen might need a fix, but the point of it is to make someone ridiculously hard to kill. Is it unfair? I don't consider it to be so. Most non-limited methods of regen are limited in what they can do (I've also used this before, so I would know).

I'm not so sure that clones are abusable (except wood clones <_<), since one cooldown affects all of them, but maybe I'm just tired and dumb.

Post was kinda all over the place, sorry about that.



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PostSubject: Re: Nerfing things   Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:23 pm

I'm sure staff is working on reworking certain things that need fixing which is what the v7 thread was for. Making this thread just splits up and repeats possible information that was already included in that thread making it harder on staff so everyone might as well post these thoughts on here if you haven't already. I +1 Koz's post tho for the most part tho DR does need some nerfing. between items, armour, and techs. Someone's Dr can be built to be quite high imo


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PostSubject: Re: Nerfing things   Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:24 pm

Actually Aki has said in other threads to split things up and while in the v7 thread it does go o we nerfing things no one has bothered to go into as much detail as Koz and Reizo just did. But as Aki would say why not keep the thread on topic rather then digressing into pointless issues. If staff wants us to place these posts in the v7 thread they will tell us to do so.


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PostSubject: Re: Nerfing things   Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:51 pm

I was on topic and stated I shared similar views as Koz as well as thinking DR should be nerfed? I was just stating a point as I know issues like this have risen in the past is all which caused to the topics being closed.


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PostSubject: Re: Nerfing things   Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:53 pm

I feel like defending Multiweave Mask, despite not being its original creator, as it was first made in V5 and probably inspired by a canon thing with masks.
The lack of health stat is because health stat was not part of the item template back when it was registered. It also means that anything that would realistically damage or destroy it would do so, regardless of its stats. If you try to tear it off with 5 strength, you would do it. If a 10 power fire stream hits a guy with the mask in the face, it would burn the mask off. If your airborne poison has acidic properties that allows it to damage or degrade equipment, it would burn through the mask. And it only protects from inhaled toxins, which all in all, can be prevented by holding one's breath.

I won't talk about Bijuu, SM, LRA or 8G as those are all limiteds and I know that staff is actively working on balancing the limiteds.

Dimensions I feel like the guidelines I made balance them reasonably well. The issue is the abilities that are given to them and the balance of those. I personally feel that sticking an LC to Dimensions is pretty bad and unbalanced as those are S rank jutsus by themselves. But would be the job of the app handling mod to work that out.

The clones and LCs I find to be pretty balanced. Wood clones are the only ones that go to the value town when it comes to AP and that's only when you combo them with other wood techs, on the other hand it's a limited clan. LCs are actually a ton of work, as they are essentially alts that you have to train and rank up for them to be of any use. The only case where they are truly powerful is when all that work pays of, then you have decently trained up LCs alongside your character in the same thread.
But when it comes to these two, I find summons much more powerful. With a single jutsu equivalent of investment (both AP and WC wise) you get several jutsu worth of AP as well as several techs to use that AP on and a body on the field. From specs and elements that you don't need to have or train.

Persistent seals that are not CM do need to be addressed in the rules imo. And I think it's an easy fix. Add a cap on how many there can be, probs up to 5. Make seals that activate have a cost. And for passives there could be an increase in all AP costs while they are used or something like that. A number of ways to deal with it. Should also note that this stuff is actually rarely used and takes a very specific build to actually use effectively.

The weapon stuff needed a rework more than a year ago. The whole sharp vs blunt thing can be settled by replacing sharpness stat with power stat and making it and health be jutsu equivalent (5-70). Then allow power to scale like jutsu do with speed and strength average. For sharp attacks, power would be sharpness; for blunt attacks it would be impact force. This is taking into account that some weapons can be used to make both types of attacks (a spear for example, axe, heck even a sword if you strike with the pummel). Rules already differentiate sharp and blunt attacks when it comes to resisting them, so that's covered. And the clashing this could remain mostly the same, with some modifiers attached maybe.

Gen is something that is really difficult to balance because of its nature. It is OP if no meta is involved, it sucks most of the time, if meta is involved (which it usually is). I don't really know how to balance it but whatever the solution, it would most likely have to stray from canon.

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